Our friends over at GamePro.com have written an interesting article on a topic I get asked about all the time — Is the PS3 harder to develop for than other systems? I gave them some feedback on this and the reporter, Blake Snow, does a nice job of presenting a well-rounded story. For this piece, I spoke to our PD group and asked them for input on this question and thought you might be interested in reading their full reply:
This is an interesting question and hidden within the question is an enormously complex subject! If the game starts life on PS3, then man-hours per feature or costs related to asset production are comparable with industry norms. For that, you can include Xbox 360 and high-end PC games, and exclude PS2 and Wii. However, since PS3’s Cell processor allows MORE features – better physics, more complex graphical processing, lighting or sound, etc. — there is inevitably going to be more cost in supporting those extra features. It’s not that PS3 is harder to write for, it’s just that you can do more with it.
Middleware tools like Havok and other specialist graphics tools are now customized to exploit Cell’s SPUs. These mean that developers don’t have to reinvent those particular wheels themselves. Also, PlayStation Edge does some very difficult and performance-critical aspects of the graphics pipeline on the SPUs: geometry processing, animation, compression – delivering performance unachievable on other systems. This is available for free to all developers from SCE. So, given that PS3 can draw more on screen, the assets required to fill that capacity go up, too. This can, but not always, require more people – however depending on the game, much of that extra content can be produced automatically – procedurally in software, not by hand. Compared to PS2, the SPUs are much easier to code for. In PS2 we had some custom chips called VU0 and VU1 which were powerful, but tricky to write for. The SPUs use a more standard programming language.
Now, it’s not without challenges:
1) SPUs are not ‘normal’ processors like the PPU. There is a trade-off between performance and versatility. A Ferrari is not the best car for a visit to Home Depot…
2) If you are porting:
If your game starts on Xbox 360 you will have to re-engineer aspects of the game to run properly on PS3. This means additional effort. Some developers have been complaining about this but I don’t believe we can solve that. Xbox 360 is a different machine with good, but lower powered hardware in a different architecture. Developers have to view them as two different machines not as a common platform.
3) If your game has heavy online use:
XBL provides more and better standard libraries for online gaming to developers. For the same features on PS3, developers have to do some extra work. We’re catching up, but there is a difference.
BTW: Glad you guys and gals are enjoying the new blog!
Well I wouldn’t say Wii has “the games” yet, they’re just different type of games so far, which are easily picked up by a casual audience ;)
Reminds me how the Saturn was more powerful than the PS1, but harder to develop for. I heard a lot of the same 3rd party complaints about the Saturn back in the day….and we all know how the Saturn ended up.
At least they admitted that “XBL” is still kicking their ass on the online front. As far as graphics go, Sony is still touting the PS3 as the superior platform, yet no game has even come close to touching Gears of War… We must give it time though, I know the machine has potential.
You should add in-game XMB access to improve the online functionality for voice, text and video chat in games.
For al the xbots who think this blog is written for xbots to pollutting this blog with anti sony and anti PS3 gossip it’s not. For all the xbots who think this blog is for pointing out that the xbox360 has the better hardware….its not.
You are on the wrong blog. Don’t possion this blog with xbox360 propaganda, we do’nt care.
For that kind of stuff the xbots have there on blog…its called : Major Nelson’s blog. Go back there and leave this blog alone.
This blog is for PS and PS3 owners who are happy to own a Playstation, and are happy that Sony is listening to us, and is trying to answering all the questions which we have.
For all the Playstation owners on this blog, this article was the reason voor xbots to attack the Playstation owners with all the old anti PS3 propaganda witch has been going over the internet sinds the E3 2005.
The best defence is to ignore the 360 fans,
When we defent the PS3 with every attack that the xboxowners hat done as a result of this article, they never will stop with the anti PS3 propaganda and they never will stop to try to point out that the xbox360 has the better hardware….WE DON’T CARE.
We know, that in the long run “the xbox360 does the talking, the PS3 will do the walking.”
The proof off that we will see in the near future. The Wii is not even the same generation as the PS3 is…and I dont care if the Wii is selling like hell. The Wii is a console for the non gamer,and is nothing more than a Cube 1 1/2.
The only thing that Microsoft is doing and Microsoft has done in the past; trying to buy every game franchise ” önly on xbox 360″.
That is the way Microsoft is trying to buy his way in to the console market, the proof of that you find plenty on the internet when they announced the xbox. And they will do it again with the 360..the proof is out there….
Thats the way off Microsoft; buy buy buy.
Sony has a lot of own developers and is investing a lot off money in that. Sony saw small developers with potention and invested a lot off money in them…proof of that is Naughty Dog, Guerrila, Zipper, and the list goes on. Thats for me why I have credits for Sony, I think thats the way to do it….Sony has more first party devs than Microsoft has, and better first party developers.
But what we are seeing in the last months is that slowly more games that where first announced for the pc and xbox360 are comming to the PS3 also. Developers know that the PS3 has the power to show of the games that can run on the 360 can also run on the PS3…and they will see that the PS3 can do more. And they will take advantage of the power of the PS3…I know that.
It will take time but its defenetly going to happen.
SO THE BOTTEMLINE IGNORE THE XBOTS WHO ARE POLLUTTING THIS BLOG AND THEY WILL GO AWAY.
\
We don’t have to defend the PS3 we know that Sony delivered us a hell of a console with verry verry great games to come.
Totally agree, just look at games like MGS4, FFXIII and Heavenly Sword? Surely those could never look that good on the 360.
If PS3 too emphasizes its cell based platform superior to others (Xbox360 & Wii), it’s not hard for PS3 to follow the path of INTEL’s Itanium and PS3 will finally stray from the mainstream.
The ambition of its cell processor can be clearly felt like what INTEL’s Itanium did in the past. But the market and the power are two different things.
raideree430 I dont agree with that, not the hardware and the end will drawn gamers to a console, the games will do that.
And when you look at the past, one thing Sony is good in is to provide Playstation gamers with a verry wide aray of games in all the genres. Thats what made the Playstation great.. thats what made the PS2 great…and Sony will do the same on the PS3.
The developers that want to push the industry forward will put the extra effort into the PS3’s complicated, but more rewarding development. All of the EAs and Ubis of the world will eventually learn as well. More effort always yeilds better results and when they realize that they can yeild better results for everyone by leading on the PS3, then why not? Rather then potentially having one “good” version of a game and another poorly implemented port.
Dave, are the Playstation Edge, dev tools currently in the hands of the majority of third party devs? I have been wondering if 3rd parties have gotten their hands on them yet. I am tired of second rate ports on the PS3, when I know that it is more powerful. If the 360 is going to hold the PS3 back and not vice versa, why would anyone NOT want the majority of 3rd party to make their main sku the PS3? Its bad for the evolution of the entire industry. From my perspective as a gamer, it just seem like the 3rd party devs are trying to take the easy way out. It is simply not right. Think of what they could do, if they develop with the PS3 in mind. I definately think we could see an entirely different breed of games.
When did the industry become strictly about finaincials? I know gaming is a business, but it just seems like only a few companies are actually trying to move the industry forward right now. It seemed like only yesterday that every company was trying to push the industry forward rather than get a quick cash-grab. Now companies are trying to take the cheap and easy way out, and give us gamers less. I am just glad that there are games like MGS4, FFXIII, Uncharted, and LittleBigPlanet to remind me that there are great things to come out of next-gen in the future.
PS
I am loving the Blog! I look forward to daily updates from the folks at SCE :)
HanSolo, I see you’re trolling here like you do on all the other forums… Keeping true to yourself I guess LOL
Anyway, Peter Moore comment (that you distorted to fit your ‘agenda’) was regarding not wanted to be pigeonholed as a hard-core machine, which would limit the sale of the 360…
Hello Jack and Kudos to Sony for the Blog Idea – It will give a great chance for you guys to talk directly to the fan base. I love my PS2 and still play it…..As a hardcore fan as I think most early adopters are I bought the PS3 soon after launch. But I am worried. The challenge for the PS3 isn’t the lack of games or anything related to development challenges. Its the price…..A price drop this fall or probably sooner is inevitable at this point but I would caution you that a $100 price point is only going to draw yawns and be almost totally ignored even if you have KillZone 2 looking exactly like the E3 video……..Even long time fans are starting to tune out and Sony does not have the luxury of leaving this situation unaddressed until the Fall of 2008.
We need Sony to step up…..Good luck with the Blog.
This is not for you sony people but those on here trying to help the ps3 grow Check the link if you find the agency interesting i think you might enjoy this
http://theagency.station.sony.com/
Being a software developer for nearly 20 years, I always considered the argument of “this is hard” to be a totally lame excuse made by lazy developers.
Programming for Windows used to be horrendous, but products like Visual C++, Delphi, VB and Java came along and made it very, very easy. It’s only hard until somebody takes the step of developing a good set of tools. That’s why companies like ID, Valve, Unreal and Crytek put so much work into their “Engines”.
For all the non-developers dissing this as BS, think of it as tuning a carby v12 compared to a carby v8. Getting the fuel mixtures across all 8 (let alone 12) cylinders is difficult, until you introduce a good set of libraries (EFI). Once the libraries are in place, you just plug a laptop in and play with fuel mappings and boost until you get the sort of dyno results you want. (Yes, I’m a car nut).
NOTE: Before the fanbois attack, the above is an analogy, and I’m definitely not saying the PS3 is 50% more powerful than the 360. Based on specs, I think the PS3 is more powerful, but I don’t think the margin is that big and also don’t think we’ll only ever see its true power until the developers make the most of it (same as all the other consoles before it).
For me the best way to tell what a system can do is looking at Square Enix they have pushed the systems harder then most others could dream and there not above doing a little extra work to make a quality product
Hi Dave! This blog is a great idea, thanks!!
On the topic of developing for the PS3, I had a question. I know for the PS2 you guys had made a Linux kit available so (well I think this is why you did it) folks could access the PS2 hardware without having to be a professional and without needing to purchase a very expensive SDK. I’ve heard of college classes that used the Linux kit PS2s in game design classes. It’s a good opportunity for both sides – the Linux kit users get to work on the console hardware directly and SCE folks get more potential Playstation developers with better experience with your platform.
What I want to know is what was the impetus behind the ‘install Linux’ feature in the PS3? While I think its a great step forward, crippling Linux so it can’t access the better PS3 graphics hardware makes it such that if someone wanted to homebrew a game for the PS3 or get some experience with its hardware, they really couldn’t get the full experience of working with PS3’s graphics capabilities. So I’m curious as to the point of the feature since it doesn’t seem to match up with what was at least my assumption about why you folks made it available for the PS2.
Thanks!
I was just wondering is anyone at sony working on allowing us to use are photos for are avatars on the ps3 and we would like to be able to send more then just picks to others at least let us send video files and maybe save game data and we really are in need of a sorting and file system to keep the XMB looking nice and clean the in game XMB is a nice idea but sounds like people are asking for to much to fast but giving us in game access to the messaging system soon would really calm many people down
Hi!
First of all: Great idea to come up with this blog. Hope you guys really are interested in what the community has got to say.
Totally agree with HanSolo on that one. I got Splinter Cell for my PS3 yesterday, and I have to say in spite of the overall nice story, sound and graphics (theoretically), the game simply hast got to many glitches to really be enjoyed, controls suffer from slow respond time etc. etc.
Quality assurance standards even for big shot publishers like ubisoft are a must (boooohh! what is that title supposed to do rather than bring in bucks? Worth playing? Hm..Not really.).
Thanks!
remember they said the ps2 was hard to program for, and look at it, quality system with quality games.
Nice blog.
The ps3 was designed to make ports from other systems difficult. Sony doesn’t want, (neither do gamers) this system to have xbox 360 ports. If developers port to the ps3, then we’re getting less game. I want content on my blu ray disc… if not game, then at least some good extras. (i.e. Strangle hold including: Hardboiled) To justify the ps3 at its current price, you have to have games or retail packages that take advantage of blu ray; and advantage over the hardware.
Don’t forget, ps3 is still in its first generation of games… most of the games like Lair, and Heavenly Sword were supposed to be launch titles. just wait till developers get used to the ps3.
About what (morphersPride | June 14th, 2007 at 7:16 am)
Is there any way sony can force those company that are porting bad copy of games to actually take the time and make them right i mean threaten to sue those lazy sob for hurting the ps3 image
how about ending multiplatforming period and third party companies make different games on the xbox360/ps3 so we gamers dont have to endure those disgusting ports.
That would be great but there to lazy to just do a little recoding there is no way they would make another game
here is the article where Hayashi from Team Ninja kicks in the nutz to all those cry baby dev.
http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=77737
@naruto007 | June 14th, 2007 at 7:54 am
Hey do you own a ps3 if so click the link on 212
At first I thought having the blog as a big announcement was a big disappointment but reading the blog actually is starting to erase doubts that were implanted into my head by other fanboys and media. I own a PS3 and when I bought it I just heard negative comments and always thought to myself well I wasted 600 bux. But now the that the future looks bright I have complete trust in SCE. Please Sony don’t dissapoint your consumers and die hard fans. Kick some major butt.
U.S. Release Date Revision
Heavenly Sword: Sept 4, 2007
Warhawk: Sept 4, 2007
The Orange Box: October, 2007
RCF: Tools of Destruction: October, 2007
Eight Days: Dec, 2007
Burnout Paradise: Jan, 2008
Unreal Tournament 3: Jan, 2008
Killzone 2: Feb, 2008
MGS4: March, 2008
Amazing..I thought an official Sony blog would be a ton of filtered PR nonsense. However I’m partially mistaken. To see a Sony official admit that their online needs work? Wow. That’s just unbelievable (though true).
Good work on making me a believer, I’ll be checking in daily.
Dragon’s Lair is on Blu-ray and it now out why is this game not in the playstation store
come on this is a classic
afrosheen- Nice, I’m sure that that’s what part of what their goal is in this site. Gamers just want them to be real, we don’t want a PR line towed on here (even though we know you can’t go off the record on a public blog, obviously). I know I enjoy hearing about upcoming changes, games, and any behind the scenes type things.
Great article, Dave. I like seeing these kinds of things. An idea that I’ve seen mentioned and I agree with, would be to have some 1st and 3rd party devs submit articles discussing what types of new effects and whatnot that they’re able to pull off, thanks to the PS3. It needs to be demonstrated why developers should want to develop for this system. Hayashi from Team Ninja may be a good candidate as in the past couple days he’s been praising the PS3 hardware, and implying that they will be making other games for it.
um, if anyone reads the article, or even the title…
“Conventional wisdom suggests that the PS3 is harder to make games on than the Xbox 360. Is it? A recent report sheds light on the subject, and GamePro speaks to Sony’s dev team for the official word”
Wow the Sony dev team says it’s as easy to program for, glad they took the time to ask 3rd party developers. It’s like Apple saying that Safari is the best web browser on Windows, or Yahoo saying they have the best search engine, or cigarette companies saying their products aren’t addictive…
c’mon – this isn’t news or even worth commenting on, this is just PR
YES the PS3 is harder to program for – why because it’s a different architecture and a different processor and a different way to program for and not what people are used to. Simple as that. The true test comes in support to developers, how well does Nintendo, Microsoft, and Sony work with the 3rd party developers to help them work with those architectures. Let’s flash back to the Saturn and PS1 – the Saturn was a pain to program for, the PS1 easy – guess which one took off. Companies can’t afford to spend the time effort learning every nook and cranny of each architecture – so they will concentrate on one and port to the others. Since the 360 came out over a year ahead of the PS3 – guess which system is going to be the base system? If the PS3 sales took off through the roof – things might have changed, but they haven’t so they probably won’t. So, I’m sorry to the Sony fan base, but 90% of your games will be 360 ports, get used to it, and only expect your 1st party titles to take the time and effort of using the PS3 to its potential.
Nonsense.
Once developers become familiar with PS3, they will pick techniques that work well on *BOTH* PS3 and Xbox 360. It will cause pain on Xbox 360 also. So 360 and PS3 are equally hard to program for when these lowest common denominator tricks are used. All this class of developers want are the largest possible footprint ever to maximize their sales. These are the “filler” and average games that form a large part of the industry.
Now the good ones are those AAA developers who labor to excel. On these, the PS3 provides more headroom than competition (HDD, BR, Cell + RSX, Home + PSN). The developers will need to work harder to achieve higher standards.
satiated
I want the Ps3 to do well but I kinda agree with you. I wish that they had spoke with ppl outside of sony ( third party) and in a interview with Ubi they said americas army would be a 360 exclusive because of user base. I am worried that most developers will think this way becasue of how many ppl own a 360.
could this mean that if it takes more time to port something frmo 360 to PS3 and devs are THAT lazy that we will be seeing less games on the PS3? or what about the idea that exclusive games will become MORE frequent since developers do not want to take the time to create a 360 or PS3 equivalent?
@slytheboss
how you doing bud???
We all know the 360 is inferior hardware. That’s why GTA IV doesn’t look good as it could be.
My bad its red storm that makes AA
TWISTED METAL ONE OF THE “SURPRISES” JACK TRETTON HINTS AT!
WANT PROOF?
HERE YOU GO:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twisted_Metal_series#News
Johnnywit. I have similar concern but if Sony make sure PS3 number continues to grow, they will have their own 3rd party exclusives too !
Im sure I’m not the first person who’s mentioned this…….but IN GAME XBL support would be FANTASTIC.
This way, (obviously) chatting, streaming video, checking other people’s “entitlements” and most importantly, launching other PS3 games with friends would be WAY simpler.
Hey, good blog!!! Wat i wuz wondering is why do the likes of final fantasy and metal gear solid come out so long after the release of the ps3? I know devs need time to become accustomed with the hardware but it would be savage if they were given this time way before the console is released so that the good games come out first. Dont get me wrong, motorstorm and resistance r savage as well!!! I know people say that the 360 and ps3 are similar but personally i think the ps3 is way better. I own a 360 and i thought it was great until the ps3 came out and i had something to compare it to. Ive always owned spny products ie ps1, ps2, psp and i own the wii as well but havent got a ps3 yet. After owning a 360 for about 6 months, the differences between the two are enormous. The 360 is manufactured extremely poorly and is a piece of plastic compared to the ps3. Anytime i turn it around or upside down to put in the play and charge cable the thing makes this huge grinding noise which apparently breaks the games. CMON NOW…who makes a console that breaks that easily. For gods sake dont put a port on the back of the machine if its gonna break when trying to use it.
My friend has a ps3 and loves it. I’m from Ireland so we only get the 60gb model n its savage cuz it comes with built in wi-fi n free online gaming unlike the 360 robbing bastards!!! Cant wait to get a ps3!!
Keep up the good work Sony!!!
I appreciate the quick response. Thanks for clearing things up in response to the article. Keep up the great work!
Dave,
You said “It’s not that PS3 is harder to write for, it’s just that you can do more with it”, but what it can do potentially isn’t the issue here. It’s interesting however that you stated it “you can do more with it”, perhaps what you are implying is that because you can do more with it – it is, yes, harder to write for but on the plus side, it has the capability to achieve more than anything else.
Developers are not going to put this effort you spoke of, into their Xbox 360 ports when developing a PlayStation 3 version simply because they see no reason to. The userbase isn’t significant enough for them to get any return on their investments so until that user base reaches what we all expect it to, maybe then we can see the PS3 achieve what it can.
Question is: How are you going to increase that user base with these kind of ports, and thus convince developers to make full use of the machines potential?
Yeah… since developers were used to the 360 and the PS3 was totally different, it was of course hard for them. You can now see games that have already began taking advantage of the PS3, and look really impressive at 1080p!
This time next year…
Please give us some more information on EDGE. You guys announced it, we hear you have been giving it to developers, but other than that everyone has been quiet about it. I am a bit worried that it may not be all it’s cracked up to be if developers aren’t giving any public feedback or critiques about how it is.
As Factor5 said though, PS3 development needs to be the first and foremost when developing multiplatform. It’s easier to go from split RAM to unified RAM. It’s easier to go from 7 “cores” to 3 or 1. It’s easier to go from specialized coding to general purpose, so you might as well take your medicine at the beginning of the project and get the hard part over with.
I salute the Team Ninja guys though. They have been defending the PS3 a lot lately.
Nice post I am really glad that this blog is updated so frequently! While Live does have some things that PSN could use there are things that piss me off about it as well like the fact that I have to pay for it, and that silver members have to wait to download demos. PSN however could use a lot more demos, & I would like to have the ability to chat, invite, etc with my friends without having to close the game like I can on the 360.
I’m doing fine Han. Have you read the Peter Moore article without your PS3 polarized glasses this time? :-p
Wats the name of the device you use for watching tv on a PSP? Im interested in getting one!!! Also, im from ireland so r they on sale in europe??
I wonder if the playstation being harder to port to and from is a strategy in having developers make more exclusive games. Otherwise would it be better to be able to have games ported more easily to encourage more games to be made?
I still think someone will eventually make a kit that will help others make ports though.
Easy to develop for is as bad as hard to develop for. It’s all about balance. For the example, it’s very easy to develop in basic language, but what you can do with it ? It is the same with X360 and PS3. I don’t care for those developers who is saying that it’s hard to develop for PS3, because that means that they want to make money quickly, and games cannot be very good. So, when some game goes multiplatform, It is certain that they want easy money, so I know that game cannot be what it was in the past. The best games always comes from Sony, the best new IPs comes from Sony, and this time around, Sony can be only better then past generations.
Sony’s competitors made their consoles for fast and easy money, so who can expect better for their games ? I don’t.
Wow that number 3 shows me that Sony is actually working on making PSN better. Good read.